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Re: The real motive.

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Posted by Ezekiel 25:17 on August 02, 2001 at 03:30:55:

In Reply to: The real motive. posted by James 5:16 on July 30, 2001 at 18:35:37:


: How is anything not based on faith? Even the foundation of the lack of belief is founded on belief that there is no god and nothing is divinely inspired.

Let us not confuse faith with belief here. Whilst it is more than possible to believe something, it is altogether a different concept to have faith in it. Faith is a concept requiring dedication and commitment whilst belief requires nothing. I can believe that Tiger Woods will win the next US Open Golf Tournament. To have faith in the same concept requires a higher degree of commitment.

Thus, it is the same in regards to religious activity. Whilst Christians have faith, atheists and agnostics choose disbelief or the belief to not choose sides. Atheists and agnostics are not required to sacrifice any time or dedication defending their beliefs. However, for a Christian to defend their faith is inbuilt in the religion.

Belief is just a matter of opinion. Faith on the other hand is a more amorphous concept which requires total devotion. It is possible to be wrong in what you believe in. To be wrong in which faith you follow has far more devastating consequences.

> Christians do have faith. That is the foundation. You have faith in nothing. That is your foundation. What we both look for is the truth in life. I have found a truth that I believe to be credible, as you have chosen to believe in nothing. Or is there more to you than that?

As I said, I consider myself an agnostic for lack of a better term, and to choose disbelief is only as the result of lack of clear evidence in the contrary. There is no clear evidence that atheists are correct either, but I am more sympathetic as they do not need to prove anything.
I repeat my example: If you claim there is $10 in your pocket, the onus of proof lies in you to pull it out to prove it to us. The onus does not lie on the bystander to prove that this $10 never actually existed.

Most humans are perpetually searching for the truth in life. However few consider the possibility that there are no ultimate truths to ever be found. Its not a choice to believe in nothing, we are all born believing in nothing. Only through interaction with others are our morals and beliefs defined. If you were born on a secluded desert island with no companionship, the concept of a higher being may exist, but the Christian concept of God never would. Likewise in many foreign countries. Would a Christian God really settle for such a haphazard system? Logically that answer is no. If you have faith, you state that we can't understand God's plan, no matter how seemingly bizarre or unjust it is.

I give you the sentence, "The quick brown fox jumps over the angry dog".

From this we can infer that the fox was escaping as a means of self preservation. It could also stand as a metaphor for the business goals of an executive officer in the army, amongst other things. The balance of probabilities suggest the simplest explanation is the correct one, although not necessarily always the case.

: First, as I said in the original posting, one of the fundamental premises of Christianity is that we cannot know all of God, at least not now. Based upon that notion, there can only be an understanding of faith in the truth that we presuppose about the universe. Catholics share little with the Baptists in the practices of church on Sundays, for example. In this we make true save for a few fundamentals that each christian church assumes to be true. You, yourself, believe in nothing.

Christians believe in a few fundamental aspects. These aspects cannot be wrong for it would cause the breakdown of your entire faith.
It is essential as 2+2=4, in an equation stating 12+432/(2+2) = ?
If these fundamentals are correct, you will have an answer. If these fundamentals are incorrect, you will again have an answer. However, only one answer can legitimately be correct.
There should be absolutely no doubt whatsoever that these fundamentals are true, otherwise the whole thing collapses. I reiterate, How can anyone possibly base their religion on something which has been written thousands of years ago, and translated numerous times. Have you ever seen a foreign film translated? Translate even a foreign newspapers and there are a multitude of possible interpretations. Now consider the bible, a book which has been translated numerous times where even the Catholics and Protestants cannot agree on the Commandments. This basically results in 2+2 = X. X being the answer each religion believes to be the correct answer.
Meanwhile, atheists don't need a foundation, they choose simply to deny that the equation exists at all or even has a legitimate answer.
What is worse? To not have an answer or to have an incorrect one?

I put it to you, that to have an incorrect one is worse, as this comes about as the result of the fear of the unknown.

: By the way, have you ever read a book with complete understanding? Bet you haven't. Try Moby Dick. Or one of the John Grisham novels. Or even a comic book. It isn't going to happen.

That's true, but that doesn't mean i revere any of these books as holy or try to infer deeper meaning into it. I just enjoy the books for what they are, an entertaining story and leave the metaphors to English students.

: Mine too, but frankly I choose to believe in something than nothing. Also, I can find the morals in any passage. Do I agree with every passage of every book, poem or song? Nope. You must make a judgment as to what is worthy of believing in.

We all judge what is worthy in believing in. Whether this is influenced by others, events or even a book is in your hands. However to place all your faith in one book to dictate your lifestyle is an act of faith, not reason, and I believe reason to be paramount to faith.

>You yourself prefer to say that no word is perfect rather than try to get explained the problems you have with the Bible. Bring those problems out into the open. I'll answer them here. Is that not the fundamental motive behind this board? If I can't answer them personally, then I'll get answers from a pastor that has higher education than me. I'm not afraid. Are you?
: Can the premise of a statement make you so afraid that you can only say any statement said is wrong?

It is human nature to be afraid of many things, but the least anyone should fear is religion :)
I choose not to place any specific examples of religious inaccuracy in here as plenty have done so before me and I'm loath to waste space and repeat. However, I again mention the lack of guidance in regards to numerous issues such as: life in outer space, women clergy and sex before marriage as examples. Furthermore, the numerous supernatural events which occur throughout, whilst nothing remotely supernatural in that vein occurs in modern society. I also take issue in any God choosing to punish disbelief with torment in hell :) I will be more specific in the future if you wish, but that will be in another thread for clarity's sake.

I don't claim that the statement is wrong, or cannot teach us anything, I merely claim that the statement may not be totally accurate :)
There is a difference, as there is between belief and faith. Shades of grey between the black and white if you wish.

: I'm looking forward to your responses,

I sincerely hope you have the patience to wade through all my responses then :)
I tend to write in spurts, and as such your responses intrigued me to the extent where I found myself trying to more clearly state my point of view.

Feel free to respond to any of my ramblings which you consider relevant :)


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