Posted by James 5:16 on March 08, 2002 at 13:03:11:
In Reply to: Re: Belief posted by Ezekiel 25:17 on March 07, 2002 at 05:06:05:
: Welcome back James :)
: I thought you'd run off on me.
: : : 2. I believe in truth.
: : : The little of it there is around, makes it all the more valuable, even though there is little absolute truth.
: : This is a very difficult issue here. Even though the two of us have had friendly disagreements, we have never come to grips as to any aspect of what the truth might be. I'd like you to tell me what truth means to you before I continue please.
: Its hard to be definitive on this subject. Perhaps a better phrase would be not using 'knowingly deceptive' phrases.
: Or perhaps we should all get to tick a box when we start life:
: 1. Do you always want to be told the literal absolute truth about everything?
: 2. Would you prefer only to hear the good things and not worry about the rest?
I do not believe that truth in and of itself is evaluative. Namely, you cannot choose which question to answer, much less answer the question of truth itself. Things exist. Or they do not. Things happen or they do not. So, I suppose we are stuck with answer number 1.
Perhaps then, if you'll agree here, we'll say that "truth" is a fact that can either be proven or assumed. When I say "assumed", I mean that we both agree that a fact placed into evidence can be assumed to be true without need of proof.
: What don't I believe in?
: : : 1. I don't believe in justice.
: : : Justice is a term usually used by one person at the expense of another.
: : Justice can be used that way. It can also be used to define a relationship between two people where one person has hurt or killed or done damage in general to another. The law of the land is a form of justice. The Bible is a form of justice. There are many, many ways to define ways of justice. In their own minds, the people who destroyed the World Trade Center (while in my belief not just at all) justified themselves using their own religion. Justice very much exists. However, the boundaries and ramifications of the law that lead to justice, the result too, are set precedented to the action. Else the action taken is simply chaos. So, justice, in and of itself, is a result of the laws we, as humans, set based on Constitutional, Biblical or other sources.
: I agree with your points.
: However, I do believe any laws which are written are suspect and any written moral code is usually biased towards the writer. The alternative though as you put it is likely chaos :)
: Fiat Justitia Ruat Caelum
: "Let justice be done, though the heavens should fall".
Very true. All writings are biased towards the author. However, the Bible is inspired by God. So, the Jews and the Gentiles are getting God's Law in the Bible.
: How important is the notion of justice in the general scheme of things?
For me, I find a need for justice. As I find a need for the other aspect of justice: forgiveness.
It's a personal thing.
: : : 2. I don't believe in good and evil.
: : : No one is born inherently and inescapably evil with no method of redemption. Similarly, the opposite also applies. Any acts which are deemed 'good' or 'evil' are usually applied by those which dislike an act done by another. These acts aren't necessarily in themselves evil.
: : I agree to much of what you say and some of what you do not. First, I believe that no man born is all good (save Jesus but I'll leave that out) and no man born is all evil. Also, in general, our actions are considered good and evil, not the people but for the sake of argument, we'll allow that too.
: : So, we have good and evil men and women. True.
: : Are some acts considered good and evil. Yes.
: : How do we interpret this?
: : We could say that all men and women have inherantly good and evil thoughts and actions. The question in my mind is one that you brought up: redemption.
: : How can we be redeemed? That is a very difficult question to throw out.
: : We do good things, for which we do not need to be redeemed.
: : We do evil things, for which we do need to be redeemed. But how? What do we look to to find that redemption. Or is it forgivness? Please tell me.
: If an action is performed which you yourself consider good, but may perhaps be construed by the majority as evil, what classification is that act?
You have to pick a standard. The law of the land is one. The religious standard is another. You need choose which one you wish to use to evaluate an action. If I was performing an act, I would be hoping that it conformed to the standards to Christian behavior. If it did not, then I would need to get some forgiveness for the action that I did.
: I do think however that if we perform an act which we are uncomfortable with, we would like someone else to chastise us and redeem us.
: Underlying all our acts is the search for salvation yet ironically this is one of the most difficult things to achieve.
: : : 3. I don't believe in destiny.
: : : Coincidence, no matter how extraordinary or improbable is still just that. If our lives were controlled or pre-planned than what use is it to even try to influence our fate?
: : Because we have no way of knowing what that fate might be? Even those that are the greatest mystics on Earth still are never infallible. It's just the way things are. We may have a destiny planned out for us that is coming tomorrow. Can we alter it? (Should destiny exist of course...) Even if we knew what was going to happen, we might try to change it. Or was that part of our destiny? It's a jumble. I just think that there is a destiny (I'm a Christian.) but we have choices that we make every day. Does God know what those choices will be? Yes. Does He stop them? Not that I can ever tell. So, we go on.
: Throughout my life I've had to make many decisions. Many good, many bad yet ultimately I have control of my destiny. There are of course obstacles which we have no hope of avoiding yet I bring my fate about and ask for no excuses for my actions.
: If there is a destiny interwoven somewhere it is beyond my ability to fathom. I believe the world due to its inherent injustice (I use this term broadly) and inequalities cannot possibly be the design of some larger plan. Even if it were and I was lucky enough to be witness to these plans, it would cause me to lose hope that any of our actions can make a difference.
: Perhaps there are many possible destinies and pathways for us out there and each decision we make brings us ever closer. Yet, ultimately who will be the final judge of whether we fulfilled our full potential?
: Again I bring to point to the many stillborn infants and so forth. What of their destiny?
I can't answer that. I just don't know. I would like to believe (and I do) those children go to Heaven. But I didn't make the standards and the rules. I just play the game and try to undrestand the rules of life as the days go by.
: : : 4. I don't believe in using CAPITAL LETTERS to emphasise a point :)
: : I agree completely.
: : : Use quotation marks by all means to emphasise something, but there are no brownie points given out to the loud :)
: Things considered, intriguing as always,
: Ezekiel 25:17
Looking forward to your (and any other response),
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