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Re: symbolism, open heart, free will.

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Posted by Ezekiel 25:17 on April 10, 2001 at 00:21:52:

In Reply to: Re: symbolism, open heart, free will. posted by Aslan on April 05, 2001 at 02:06:47:

Lo there :)
I'm not sure which points you are referring to, but nevertheless I'll try and establish context based on the previous response.

: Okay, I quoted your points, here are my replies:
: (The day I figure out this message board will be the same day my computer crashes. I'm sure of it.)

: I've had proof of that. It's personal, so I won't get into it. But, much like the missing 10 dollar bill, I saw it, and I know it exists. Just because I can't produce it for you doesn't make the existence any less so in my mind.

Here is where it gets so frustrating for everyone concerned. You know tangibly that God exists for whatever reason, yet you can't relate this experience in words to any other. Thus, at this point we can discontinue this line of discourse :)
: Nah, I think this is where we are to realize He's much bigger than us. You're the end all be all, says the creation to the Creator. As a curious creation, I would like to know all I can about this Father. This Master. When I find out the lengths His love goes, well, that makes me all the more intrigued. However, the others who have no curiousity, due to conclusions they have already reached...okay. I respect that.

I agree, Curiosity is a remarkable thing, but everyone of us is blinded by their own preconceptions. Its impossible to be human and not be. Never underestimate the power of denial. But, all one can do is to seek the truth, the meaning, the reason for everything, and to do what they feel is right regardless of the conclusion. I respect those who question everything, for where else does true philosophy begin? Let me state here that the preconception that God is Male, is a by-product of the male dominated era wherefore the bible was produced.

: No, love cannot be dictated Ezek. Like trust, I feel it has to be earned. The commandment 'Honor thy Father and thy Mother' I feel went with the unspoken 'Honor thy children, for I gifted you with them'.

Love is a much maligned word. It can be used in so many ways in varied context. Love is something than should be earned, but more often than not is given freely regardless of the repercussions. I'm not sure what my actual point is here :)

: I really wish I could type something here to help you reconcile your past, but I can't. And I won't even try. You're too wise.

Wisdom is a double-edged sword. I don't claim to be wise, I don't claim to be right, but what I do require is the truth. However, the truth is as always elusive, but what fun would the search be, if everything is too easy? Perhaps, I'm missing the context here, with which part of my past should I be reconciling?

: On that note, who should I thank for you? It's not everyday I can have such a civil discussion with someone who's beliefs are so radically different. Should I thank your parents?
: God?
: Or should I thank you?

Giving thanks is something that can never be done enough. We should appreciate the workings of all those around us, for each forms just a small part in the working of society today. However, lets not go overboard and turn this into an Oscar presentation :)

: Thank you Ezek.
Thank you too Aslan. :)

: Do you REALLY want Him too? What are you looking for? A burning bush? A cloud yelling at you? What exactly would a 'God appearance' be in your mind?

Well, practically speaking, any of those would do fine :) I would require a supernatural manifestation beyond any scientific basis, or alternatively the tangible response in words to me, of a question asked or plea given.

: As far as the other questions, I guess it's between God and them. If He is the God I believe He is, He'll make Himself known, in one way or another. I suppose that's for God and those you spoke of to work out.

Again, I'm sidestepping the freewill and fate principle, as its just too complex an issue at present and I have no time. Again let me reiterate, that if God makes himself known to us, that denies free-will.

: Abraham,Moses,Samuel,Elijiah,Isiah,Mary,John the Baptist... I have NO idea what you're talking about here Ezek:)

Join the club, I often have NO idea what I'm talking about either :) I merely ask you sort through my assorted ramblings until I touch upon something relevant.

:However, did God pick them, or did they pick HIM? They were all solemn worshippers from childhood. The Bible speaks of them receiving messages from God in their adult years. So it didn't happen overnight.

To be a solemn worshipper from childhood, requires your parents or social upbringing to convince you to your belief. I'm just a little worried about the trend where God picks favourites amongst humans, amongst certain races and certain inviduals. This might happen if God was imperfect, but if God truly is perfect, and just and loving, this does not fit into my concept of God.

: Actually Ezek, I read somewhere else here, where you played Devils Advocate to a non-believer. Your argument in FAVOR of God was one of the best I've ever read. I'm not kidding.

Heh, if Christianity has come to such a sorry state, that I'm its strongest advocate, the church is in for some hard times to come :)
Again, I thank you for your compliment, but there are far superior religious experts than me :)
Frankly, I can't quote bible references, I can't tell you the name of all the disciples, or even use capital letters :), but I will try to state as logically and succinctly the reasons behind both belief and disbelief.

Unfortunately, I don't think I've answered any of your points remarkably well this post. I'm not sure with all the quotings, and so forth how it all applies in context, and I believe I've ended up agreeing with you, more often than not :)

For my sake, could you please just quote a few lines of dispute, and your reasons why, in the future?:)



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