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Posted by Cirrus on February 27, 2001 at 22:23:36:

In Reply to: Re: Sure there is, I guess.. posted by Sir Hoagy on February 25, 2001 at 22:46:55:

With the "traditional Christian model" set aside, asking whether or not two universes with and without God would be any different is irrelevant because you are assuming that they are the same. The so-called "two universe model" is a tautology; whether or not we are in the one "with" God is impossible for us to say (Cf. "A fish does not see the water in which it swims").

And even if this natural design were the result of a natural designer it would not have to necessitate that the design be perfect just because the designer is perfect, and arguing so would not extend beyond the simple and naive limitations of human reason (i.e., "why would God NOT want perfect beings?" is demanding blood from a stone). Or maybe the designer is imperfect.

All that "would" and "could" exist stuff is dependent on that grand "IF" at the beginning of the premise, which makes it speculative. And necessary conditions WERE established to "introduce 'god' into the picture" because such conditions which allowed 'us' to evolve out of the purely biological means of knowledge transmission (via genes) into the vast and nebulous social realm of knowledge transmission (via words and, consequently, thoughts and ideas) are upon us today. We created God, didn't we? He's here, isn't he? If even in an idea and nothing more.

God is just another name for what you've been talking about.

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